You read what you want to read.  It's not like I was expecting you to have some great epiphany and realize that this country is in for a world more of hurt before there are any glimmers of hope of it getting better.

I hope I am wrong.  But I firmly believe that this threshold has been crossed.

Simply not true, if you got this from what I said then you misread it or I did not write it clearly enough and for that I am sorry.

What you do with your time is entirely up to you and you owe me nothing.  All I have seen from you is vague fear and strawman arguments.  Obama is scary/shady, I just got this feelin!  You can choose to debate the points or not, but the timing of your disengagement from the conversation is suspect.
 

Pretty clever, certainly cuts down on quotes.

Oh I agree completely that the United States is in for a world of hurt, and so is the Globe in general, but this is unavoidable and has nothing to do with whether Obama or McCain is in charge.

I did not expect you to have any great epiphany either, but I do hope you realized your mistake on Obama and Afghanistan

LOL.  That tunnel is being built to try to save the toads.

Everyone has beliefs.  Everyone has passion about their beliefs.  This country was founded on personal beliefs that were shared amongst many.

FYI, your "fundamental" difference between conservatives and liberals is WAY OFF the mark.  But I would expect that.  I mean, you spell utopia "Eutopia."  Conservatives want to progress more than anyone, but not at the expense of the basic principals that this country was founded on.

Unfortunately, that was the only thing clever in the post...

Was that called for?

No.  It wasn't.  I apologize.

To be fair, if we go back far enough then germans are still nazis, all americans are genocidal invaders, all australians criminals and the jews and the italians were part of the axis of evil that killed jesus.

So duh, big deal, the USA was founded on genocide and terrorism. It improved a little bit over the years.

Lets just assume, very safely, that congressman X is a fucking moron.  Out of the thousand plus pages, congressman x finds something related to suicide, assisted suicide, living wills, whatever.  Congressman X then goes on a tear, telling equally stupid idiots in the media that it's talking about death panels.  Congressman X is seen to be obviously wrong, becomes laughing stock.

So far I don't see anything that even suggests Obama isn't just as decietful when he "debunks" it.  The test cases in this country, Massachussets and Oregon for instance, have done the exact same thing.  The other countries that have implemented this type of system have also done the exact same thing.  It's in the UK media all the time these days, one story after another about this or that person being denied care.  Forty grand for a round of chemo, or forty bucks for a lethal shot of morphine.  They will be deciding who lives and who dies when they write the regulations saying who can get treatment and who can't.

When you sign up for your insurance, you already have it in writing.  When they pass this bill, they wont even have written them yet.  To compare any of the four bills to a contract you knowingly enter into is just absurd.

Change is not progress, change is change.  If you empty your gas tank and put bleach in it, you have not made progress, you have changed the contents of the container.  Since liberals started their so called progress, we have gone through one great depression and numerous above average recessions both in length and severity, along with a few massive inflationary periods.  This is with a supposedly better system for managing them.  We've been in a state of constant debt, continually worsening, and add new unfunded entitlement programs every time one party sweeps the works.  Crime has gone through the roof, and the largest and most advanced industrial engine in the world is now one of the worst among modern civilizations, and the only statistic we take first place in is the obesity index.  Progress?

Edit:  It just occured to me that there are probably utter morons on this forum that would disagree with my view on trading gasoline for bleach.  You're polluting the air with carbon dioxide every time you breath, obviously you should stop.

Ok, sorry to kind of back track this conversation, as my last post and the response with questions about it were like 4 pages back (and yet still within 24 hours....), but here we go.

"Those are terms that conservatives are calling liberals -- According to the conservative posters here, Obama is guilty of associating with "radicals."  I myself happen to have anarchist leanings (only because I don't get out much, and I am under the mistaken impression that most people are like me -- which my husband assures me is not the way it is)."

- k10w3

1st of all, leftests are like the opposite of fascists. 2nd, there are indeed radicals on the right and left sides. There can be no doubt that, based on what legislation he has put forth and pushed through Congress, that he is a radical, too. Note, that 'radical' does not necissarily mean 'bad,' and I also used it as an adjective to fascitsts in my post, not that republicans would be called that (which is also the case in numerous places. My point was, however, to say that just blatantly calling people and their ideas names because you disagree with them is not necessary.. 3rd, anarchy has got to be the worst way to go, as far as forms of government, in my opinion. In anarchy, there is no "state" to which people can look to security or protestion, and there are no laws to stop anyone from infringing on there's rights (ie. rape, murder, burglery, etc. would all be 'legal').

The rest of the quotes are by Supakewreu:

"I am here as a liberal with an open mind.  Please justify your statement that the current unfinished health care proposal, if enacted, will kill the economy."

1st, take a look at this: http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/03/news/economy/health_care_class_act.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009090310 This is a link to CNN, by the way, a site which most say is a democrat-biased news service. 2nd, how is taking a bunch of people, many who can't pay their own way in the 1st place, forcing everyone in the nation to pay for their health care, and then expecting to save money and get the same quality of care as everyone else had before, supoosed to work?

"Death panels, killing Grandma, etc.  I would say he is justified in calling these tactics misinformation.  Do you really believe in death panels?"

No, I do not believe in dealth panels, and yes, I am sure there is some misinformation out there, as there is with all things. However, claiming that some 30% of the American people changed their views on him and his reform plans because of this is nonsince. In fact, if there is so much of this misinfo around, you would expect it to have permiated my state, Idaho, as it is one of the reddest states in the Union (last democratic president Idaho has voted for was LBJ) . Has this been the case? No. But to disregard anyone's for disagreeing with him by saying they have been swayed only by 'politics and misinformation' is an extremely arrogent thing for anyone to say/do. As a US president, I would have expected more from him (also, whenever he gets asked a question he doesn't want to answer, guess what, he never actually answeres it. I wonder what it would be like in the schools he is speaking at if they took on that same philosophy...). Has he thought it might be 'reason,' and not those others? Secondly, in the bill's legislation, it does cut soem care for the elderly because it will "save money." You know what, not providing medical care in prisons would save money, too. Why don't we just let them all die and be rid of them (sarcasm in case someone can't tell).

"You are misquoting him, or misquoting his plans for the school event.  I believe it was "what can you do to help the President".  Do Republicans have so little respect for the office of the President that they object to this statement?  Would they be crying indoctrination if George W Bush was addressing schoolchildren?  Where was the Republican outrage when George H.W. Bush gave a speech to schoolchildren that contained specifics on his education policy?"

1stly, what else do you think he is doing, speaking to children? Passing out change? (ok, that was a bad joke...) It is not that I disrespect him that much, it is that when you put that quote in context of everyting else he has done and said during his reign as president, "what can you do for the President" does take on a negative connotation, even if you agree with the rest of his policies/ideals. Either way, can you tell me truthfully that that does not sound somewhat like brainwashing/propoganda/influencing without their parents there/indoctrination/etc. (I am not a radical, anti-democrat, I just take any threat to me and my fellow citizens' safety, security, wellbeing, rights, and freedoms seriously. Also, I am also not saying that what the republicans did was 100% right either.) HOWEVER, the way in which he is wanting to speak to minors about 'why they should help him, and that he is the president, and that becase he is the president, we should take everything he says to be the one and only truth, and that he is perfect, and that he can teach us many things because we are to stupid to figure anything out for ourselves and he is smarter than all of us (Machiavelli, anyone?), and everyone should be like him because he volunteers to say that, "I am such a good person"' seems like a big problem to me.

"I will not belittle you.  I understand right wing policies as I am for the most part a fiscal conservative (within reason, there needs to be regulation).  I welcome an open minded discussion, please help me understand why you think the health care reforms will kill the economy."

Thank you, and I hope I was succesful in convaying my points.

@psychoak

I heartily agree with your change/progress statement. Ever since the New Deal, most democrats (and some republicans) in goverment have been progressives, NOT LIBERALS, no matter what they tell you. Sen. Clinton has even admitted this, herself. By definition, progress means to move foreward. Change on the other hand, can be backward, side-to-seide, whatever. The "progressives" though, want everything to progress in such a way as to make America a socialist state and for them to be controlling it. The socialism will be a cover for their power-hungryness bey making everyone "feel good." But is it actually good? No. Does eating a bunch of junk food taste good/ You bet. But is it good for you? Not a chance. (Disclaimer: no, I am not a gonermnetal conspiratist ) BTW, you're Edit made me laugh, too.

Honestly, I would have a much greater respect for President Obama if he treated me with more respect. And to those of you who might think me disloyal because ofthis, I am not loyal solely to the entity of the president, I am loyal to American, all that she stands for (or rather, once stood for), and our government as a whole. The 1st amendment says we may petition goverment about their actions that we disagree with, and doing so is perfectly within my and everyone else's Constitutional rights.

And, as a final note, I greatly apprecaite all of you who have been willing to be civilized about this discussion and have kept a cool head. Well, have a happy Labor Day weekend everybody.

Has anyone here or in the Senate or the House READ the entire 1000+ pages of the health bill in it's entirety? ANYONE!

C'mon, someone has to have read thhe DAMN thing. If you have, please speak up. Then I may listen. 

Have you read it all? if you have, then I MAY listen to you...

So, say you're in school. You're taking an advanced math class (say, calculus). The book that goes with the class has the most convoluted writing in it you've ever seen in your life (and there is no answer key and no outside help is aloud) and there is a descrepencey between me and you on a certain part of the math involved in a series of the problems (neither of us knew the exactly the right way to do the problems, but both of us really wanted to learn what it was).  If I were to say to you, "Has anyone here or in the Senate or the House READ the entire 1000+ pages of our calculus book in it's entirety? ANYONE! C'mon, someone has to have read the DAMN thing. If you have, please speak up. Then I may listen." and then stormed ayway, you'd probably think I was the biggest jerk in the world.

I'm just sayin.....

Btw, I'd like to add this to my evidence for thie health care reform package, among other things, killing our economy:

Google the words: The National Debt Road Trip and watch the video of it.

You're pretty funny. That must explain why conservative authors have also been destroying liberal authors in book sales. I'm sure the New York Times must have loved having to list Beck's Common Sense as the number one best seller for 10 straight weeks and in all categories. Speaking of Beck, I see plenty of people here spewing a bunch of ad hominem B.S. without any concrete basis in facts. So the guy is dramatic. Big deal. But unless those of you who claim he is lying can back up their accusations with actual evidence (which you can't), you really ought to find something better to do with you time, you know, like listening to him impartially and then checking up on the facts.

I did not storm away. All I asked was Has any one read it? If anyone has and wishes to explain it ALL to me, OK, I'll listen. Just find me someone who has read it all.

I was talking about health, not math.