I agree, Nitro Cruiser. Well done.

I don't really know how to respond to something this childishly simplistic. If it weren't for taxes we'd still be being sold snake oil (even with the FDA we still are at timeS) and the planes wouldn't fly... How would something like the FAA exist if only people who fly paid for it? We'd be living in the stone age if we practiced that mentality.

Also it assumes there's no return on any of the welfare you're forced to provide.  If you don't have kids and therefore don't want to pay for public education (or if you home school or send your kids to private schools) that doesn't mean people who attended public schools don't become doctors, architechts, engineers, or just construction workers who then provide services you utilize which would be impractical or more expensive if not for that public education.

I also believe welfare reduces crime and unrest, which may not seem beneficial or relevant to you, but if people were starving in the gutters it probably would be before long... Not to mention there's a term for paying for crime protection and it's "protection money." I've never been the victim of a violent crime, but I still prefer taxes to hiring thugs to keep me safe.

 

Now of course there's boundaries, but debating over where those boundaries are or should be drawn is not remotely similar to the statement you made.

 

Your right, it probably does help, doesn't mean I have to like it..and is no different from any other kind of fearmongering imo.

I think your missing the point... to a rather simplistic and generalized statement.

Let me explain a little further what the underlying gripe is...

We're not barbaric cold hearted assholes, I would never deny a hungry child food or a sick person help.

What disgusts me are the growing numbers of gamers of the system, lazy assholes that have nothing better to do than sit on their asses, complain that every problem in their life is someone elses fault while sucking up resources, taxes paid in by hard working prideful Americans, honest people being taxed over a barrel for someone elses benefit.

Yeah, I have a H U G E problem with that.

 

Want to completely ruin a society... put everyone on welfare.

 

www.glennbeck.com

Do you really KNOW a significant amount of people cheating the system?  Have you ever applied for assistance?  It's a job in itself!  It requires a tremendous amount of organization and paperwork.  I don't know of more than 1 or 2 persons who had the skills to play the system for any length of time.  Besides, Bill Clinton enacted welfare reform -- people can't be on it for life (they can be on disability for life, but not AFDC -- there's a 3-year cap on that).  The one person that I for sure know of who gamed the system did it through the Veteran's Association, and even with that, he had to serve in the military to acquire his injury he milked for all he could.  I don't know how one would even go about cheating AFDC; they require so much proof and paperwork, I'm sure they lose at least 25% of qualified applicants just with the initial paperwork alone!  You can't just walk in and say "I'm broke, I have no money and I have no job," they want official papers that prove your broke, have no money and don't have a job -- I'm not sure how one produces those things in that situation.

Oh.. now ur denying that govt assistance fraud happens to any great degree... thats just untrue.

but for the sake of argument,  lets say just one of the aformentioned people were gaming it.. yeah.. I got a huge problem with that.

In fact.. strange as it may seem... i'm against anyone that tries to rip me off. I know.. shocking.

Im not going to get into a discussion of how difficult it is to accomplish.

 

and yes, I know all about applying for, recertifying for, receieving assistance.. I have been there. Difference is , I do\did my damnedest to get as far away from help as I can.

 

I'm not opposed to temporary assistance, We have receieved it, many people I know also have

I'm opposed to a govt that wants to do and be everything for everyone.. opposed to a long term society of assumed entitlement.

I'm for, helping someone get back on their feet so that may fend for themselves.

 

 

 

 

We're still a 2 party system, and we still have 3 branches of government to balance everything out, so no matter how socialist our president is, he must get the approval from congress and everything must be legal or it will be challenged in the supreme court.

Look, I'm not at all pleased with the way our country has become the world police, but I have to take the good with the bad.  In order to keep the stress levels lower for both of us, how about we decide in our heads that all MY tax dollars will be used for social programs and YOUR tax dollars will be used for military ventures. 

This is how I live with myself when I get my property tax bill every year -- I get really annoyed with a lot that my county does, but if in my head I think every dollar I'm paying in goes to the library system and the schools (even though I don't have any children in school, I like them off my street during the day, and the school does a darn fine job of that), and all the other money goes for the programs those other people who think the exact opposite of me--those geezers with the "I support  the local sheriff" people -- their money goes to the jails, and the police, and my money goes to the library and the schools.  That way we BOTH get what we want without the other having to pay for it.

I see them EVERY DAY.

They walk into my office looking for a place to rent...they have Section 8, which is a government program to help the poor pay their rent.

These people can afford a better house than I because it's paid by the government (with my hard earned money!).

These people do not work at all!

These people come into my office dripping in gold. They drive into the parking lot in Mercedes, Porshe, Cadillac, etc. and I have a used car that is on it's last legs and probably will not last the winter.

Don't even get me started on how many people abuse the system. I am just sickened by how many people out there are using my tax dollars to get a free ride. It's discusting by how many of them there are.

I am sick and tired of people thinking they are entitled to anything, and using my money, that I earned to get it.

Well said Xiandi.. when WILL they get it?

Have you reported them?  By law, those receiving Section 8 housing must have income 50% below the median income of that area, and those with 30% less are higher on the list.  If they are coming in dripping of gold, driving Mercedes, Porshes and Cadillacs, then A. They are lying about their income, or B. they are related to or are having relations with someone who sells illegal drugs who is gifting them with these luxuries, which is still quite illegal as far as them getting government handouts.  Assets are included as income. 

Here's another brilliant idea (and I know I sound like a broken record on this issue); how about we legalize drugs and TAX the income of drug dealers?  Right now we're allowing a lucrative drug market (where are the free marketers on this issue?) to be a career choice only for criminals!  (Criminals are known for being discerning when checking ID, so don't be surprised if your school-aged children get their hands on drugs, because illegal drugs are easier for them to get than legal drugs that are being sold by reputable business men who deal in alcohol and tobacco).  If drugs were legal (but regulated), then those section 8ers coming to your office wouldn't have so much bling to annoy you with, because whomever they know whose doing an unregulated, untaxed, overpriced since its illegal business, would most likely be unemployed!

You know, what I find really funny is that almost all of the arguements liberals/progressives use to refute "radical" conservative ideas can be used against them....

Does it occur to anyone that maybe CNN and others might be slighting their news into a more favorable light for the democrats, and it's not just that Fox news is some conservative-whacko-show?

Also on that note, Obama's response to his poll ratings dropping (because of his health crae reform plan, which will end up just killing our economy and not do anyone much good in the long run) really irks me. He claims that it is just 'misinformation' and 'politics.' Has he ever stopped to think that we Americans may not all be the ignorant children he supposes we are? His arrogance amazes me..... And on top of this, vsiting elementry schools and telling the kids "What can you help Obama?" is tantemount to indoctination.....

I do not wish to be called names or to be mocked for this, as I am sure none of these others who have posted here have wanted. So before you start belittling us as stupid or radical facists or anarchists (or whatever you decide on this time), please just take the time to read our arguements with an open mind, look up any "facts" from multiple, reliable sources if you question their authenticity, and try to add something positive and productive to the conversation.

 

Kudos to Styler, Nitro, Xiandi and others.

Those are terms that conservatives are calling liberals -- According to the conservative posters here, Obama is guilty of associating with "radicals."  I myself happen to have anarchist leanings (only because I don't get out much, and I am under the mistaken impression that most people are like me -- which my husband assures me is not the way it is).

Congratulations Po, you've written the words that will lead to your healing.  Now all you have to do is read them and thing of the saying "two wrongs don't make a right".  If you pull it off, you should investigate the rest of what I said so you can take issue with something that's actually interesting, instead of this turkey shoot for an argument.

 

I'm in complete agreement about the south being scary though.  Unfortunately, I'm here in racist hell southern Oklahoma, and the racists are all registered democrats.  How do I know?  There are so few people registered republican that the democratic primary is the means for electing all the local officials.  I haven't voted for a single candidate below the national level since I got here.  When funding for a school in the "black town" came up in a ballot measure, one of my relatives was like "what do they need a school for?  It's not like black people can learn nothin!"  Yeah, he's a died in the wool democrat, I didn't ask him whether he voted this last time around.  I can't imagine he was able to make a mark next to an R, even if McCain is a better democrat than he is.

 

 

This is the FAA that's ten years behind on radar capacity, doesn't check maintenance records until after a whistle blower goes to the news, and tells the manufacturers to change their specs when the airliners complain about stringent safety requirements?

 

When Alaska Airlines was caught failing to lubricate jackscrews, and then not replace the worn nuts, they got the FAA to increase the time between inspections, increase the interval between mandatory lubrication, and tell MD to set a higher threshold for wear.  The whistle blower was fired and trashed.  The result was 88 dead people when flight 261 did a nose dive into the pacific after they blew off the new wear threshold as well.  The US attorneys then let them all off the hook for those 88 counts of manslaughter.  Yay government oversight, looking out for the people...

 

Lawsuits to a better job of protecting you from unscrupulous corporations than Uncle ever wll.  To get Uncle to care, you need a majority opinion telling politicians the end is coming if they don't get off their ass.  To get a corporation to care, all you need is one judge and twelve jurists to make it worth their while to do the proper maintenance.  Niether one of them will do a damn thing before the catastrophy hits, so the post mortem revenge isn't even a drawback.

 

 

Like the alarming percentage of the workforce that stays employed just long enough to collect unemployment, rinse and repeat?  They absolutely love these extended benefits too.  Did you know that unemployment increases right when they do it?  It's like clockwork.

 

 

Crime went way up after the progressive welfare state kicked in, and crime amongst minorities went through the roof.  It stands to reason, if one does such silly things, that welfare not only doesn't reduce crime and unrest, but increases it instead.  Check out the statistics for a place like Harlem and compare them to things like the installment of quotas into hiring practices and you get one scary picture.

 

I am here as a liberal with an open mind.  Please justify your statement that the current unfinished health care proposal, if enacted, will kill the economy.

 

Death panels, killing Grandma, etc.  I would say he is justified in calling these tactics misinformation.  Do you really believe in death panels?

You are misquoting him, or misquoting his plans for the school event.  I believe it was "what can you do to help the President".  Do Republicans have so little respect for the office of the President that they object to this statement?  Would they be crying indoctrination if George W Bush was addressing schoolchildren?  Where was the Republican outrage when George H.W. Bush gave a speech to schoolchildren that contained specifics on his education policy?

I will not belittle you.  I understand right wing policies as I am for the most part a fiscal conservative (within reason, there needs to be regulation).  I welcome an open minded discussion, please help me understand why you think the health care reforms will kill the economy. 

 

 

Perhaps thats why flying or its administration is not a "right", it is a service. New topic if you want to discuss taxes on services ... like govt. health care, as some here expect it to be a right. The only thing childishly simplistic here it the amount of naivety of what constitutes a right.

right - the freedom to do something.

What the heck are you on about? Welfare, education... these are not rights either under the US Constitution either. These are services and/or entitlements. You obviously are unable to distinguish between the two. You appear to be in favor of entitlement programs that benefit some at the cost of others and that's fine. To some degree we all use some federal and state govt. services that others may not. Just don't tell me it's my right to provide or accept the entitelment.

 On the other hand, many folks want someone to pay their way for everything. Personal responsibility is hard work that some are not cut out for, therefore these folks rely on others to pull their weight. Some live quite well in this state of public support their entire lives. Here is a list of your rights as a US citizen, please note the absence of welfare and education.

Nice rant but you obviously do not comprehened what I wrote. Learn the difference between a service and a right... the light will come on.

It's already happening in other countries.

What would you call a set of individuals making calls on who gets life saving meds.. and who doesn't?

 

Put em out of their misery panel?